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Manage the Funds Podcast

Expert insight on the financial topics that impact your bottom line

The psychology of money


Does money stress you out? It doesn’t have to. Listen as we discuss the role of your psychological upbringing dealing with money, questions you can ask to change how you think about money, how to deal with different money habits and the effects of trying to keep up with the Joneses. Guest host: Sarah Newcomb, Senior Behavioral Scientist + Author

Michael Carlin

This is Michael Carlin, President of Henry+Horne Wealth Management with the Manage the Funds Podcast today. I’m very excited. Maybe even a little bit nervous to have Dr. Sarah Newcomb here. Sarah is the author of the book Loaded: Money, Psychology and How to Get Ahead Without Leaving Your Values Behind. Sarah, let’s talk about you for just a second. You’re a behavioral economist at Morningstar. For those of you that don’t know Morningstar – I’ve been in the financial services field for 23 years – Morningstar is one of the most vital, critical information sources that we use as advisors. If you’ve ever looked at mutual funds or data, you’ve looked at Morningstar. Sarah is, again, a huge part of the Behavioral Sciences Team and expertise there. She has a Ph.D. in behavioral economics, a master’s degree in financial economics and a master’s certification in financial planning from Bentley – a school that’s near and dear to my heart with family that has attended there as well. If I may be so bold to say…is this accurate? You aim to translate the findings from your research into practical and useful tools for everyone. You want everyone to be financially sound.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

I do. That’s right.

Michael Carlin

So, with that, one of the questions – I’ve read the book. It is my favorite book on the psychology of money.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

That means a lot to me. It’s a labor of love and I’m so glad that it’s out there. It’s especially gratifying to hear that people are putting it into practice and that it’s useful.

Michael Carlin

It’s super useful. I think that after today, as we go through it, the need for it, which I inherently understand because of what I do, will be clear to all the listeners as well. I’m curious – the first investment you ever remember making – what was it?

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

Actually, I’d love to talk about the first investment that my husband told me I couldn’t make. My now ex-husband – unrelated. I really wanted to get in on the Google IPO. The reason was because I thought the Dutch Auction idea was so smart and I just really wanted to be able to take advantage of that. With that said, I’m not much of a speculator. I have a small, little amount of money that I set aside that I call my gambling fund. That’s the money that I allow myself to buy individual stocks with. Everything else is really, just in the boring target date investments.

Michael Carlin

Well, I think that you’d find that most people who have those boring target date investments, than a lot of people who try to overthink things, tend to perform better in those boring funds, but we can unpack a little bit of that. You know, for me, my first stock that I bought, I bought when I was 12.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

Oh, nice. What was it?

Michael Carlin

It was analog devices. I was such a nerd. It was like 7:30 at night on PBS. It would be a bunch of crotchety old guys in suits talking about stocks. That’s what I like to watch. They talk about analog devices. Now mind you, Analog Devices is still a company today. But they do neither analog nor devices. They had to evolve into something else. So, let me share with you the thoughts behind why this podcast is so vital and critically important to me. I started in the business in 1995 and it takes so long to figure out how the financial services industry works from an advisor perspective. You get training. You meet with clients, you do plans, and you hope to do well managing the investments you’re in as you continually are trying to work toward something with people. Yet, all the years of all the plans, it used to be we created these big fat financial planning books. All those years and all those books and I couldn’t quite figure out why, when we had these beautiful plans, the clients often weren’t able to meet me halfway. They weren’t able to follow through. For years I thought it was me and I didn’t really know what to do about it. Then technology continues to improve. We still do the plans. I was probably in the business for 20 years before I was able to connect the dots to say there’s something psychologically going on with clients, but I couldn’t put my head around it. Your book, for me, solidifies that understanding now and we were able to work with clients better. So, why did you write the book? For me, your book is magic. Why did you write it? What did that process look like?

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

Well, I think all research is me-search. I wrote the book. First, I got into financial psychology because at 28 I had a degree in math and I couldn’t get my finances together. I had to admit to myself that it had nothing to do with numbers because I’m great with numbers. So, that was when I leveraged that math degree to go to Bentley to study personal financial planning because I thought, look if this is a logical exercise, then I’m just going to learn how the pros do it. I was tired of the stress of not making ends meet. I slowly learned estate planning, tax planning, all the investment management stuff that you learn as a financial planner. I learned about Morningstar there at Bentley and sometimes I fan girl about being part of Morningstar. So, you’re not alone there.

So, I was looking for that thing that was going to break me out of my bad habits – that understanding that was going to help me to get free from the stress of a lack of financial mismanagement. What I learned, though, was that knowing about how to invest and knowing about tax law and estate planning didn’t really do the trick. But, I took a class in psychology and financial planning, and this was an elective. This was something that just seemed interesting to me. That’s how it always goes – it just seemed interesting.

Professor Dr. Jim Grubb was training beginner financial planners to be prepared for the people that were going to walk through our doors. He was helping us to understand our own prejudices. For example, how would we react when somebody came through our door and felt like a complete failure for only earning ten million dollars that year? Would we judge them when we think how can you possibly feel like a failure? Or, will we be able to look past the number to see the person? That person may very well be living in the shadow of a father, for example, who built an empire and here they are with their piddly little 10 million dollars.

The biggest thing that I learned in that class was that money is not about numbers. I knew from my experience that it wasn’t about numbers, but I needed to know that I wasn’t the only one. It’s not about numbers. It’s about the stories that we tell ourselves because of those numbers. That was the takeaway. That was not only my own issue with money. This finally gave me the tools I needed to unpack what my own financial biases were, my own relationship with money and figure out what was holding me back. But it also ignited my imagination and got me to realize that I couldn’t be the only one who was smart, ambitious and hardworking. At that point I realized I didn’t want to become a traditional financial planner. What I wanted to do was to study how to get our own way financially.

I want to be clear. There are a lot of systemic problems that we have as a society that keep people down. They can work hard and still not get ahead. I’m not talking about those issues. I can’t help with that. We have to work as a society to fix our societal problems. But, there are ways that we can hold ourselves back. There are ways that we can get in our own way and I got out of mine. Then I decided I wanted to help other people who were like me to get ahead or try. It wasn’t because of anything external to themselves. It was all in their head. I wanted to be able to help people get started. That’s what Loaded is. It’s the culmination of all the aha moments that I had over the first 10 years of studying a format that I think I was able to go through the complexity and confusion and then offer other people the simplicity on the other side.

Michael Carlin

This isn’t a commercial for your book but it’s super readable. So, kudos to you for doing a really nice job of that. You addressed the money issues, so we couldn’t possibly unpack all of what it’s in your book. I thought we could spend a minute or two addressing where your money issues come from and where they developed.

Your book helped me personally think about that because, you know, I think that I’m good with money. I do well in managing it, in saving it and in just being very steady and very secure. But your book did make me think about why for me. My grandfather was the biggest influence by far and it was only in reading your book I started to remember sitting in his little office when he would say things like, “You never spread the principle. You only spend the income.” I had no clue what he was talking about. I’m a kid. I didn’t know what principal income was, but it’s funny, I remembered it later.

He would collect stamps and he would collect coins. He showed up once with a new briefcase to my parents’ house and I was like Papa, you got a new briefcase, this is amazing. It’s beautiful. He said, “It’s not new.” I said, “It’s not.” He was a veterinarian and he said, “somebody showed up to my office with this briefcase, so I kept it.” I’m like they just left it there? He said, “Well, there was a dead cat in it. So, there is a god.” That’s where I get mine. That’s where I come from. That’s my money philosophy in a lot of ways. If I carried a briefcase, I’m sorry to say, you probably wouldn’t ever want to look at my briefcase. But I don’t carry those anymore. So, that’s my story.

In your book, you do a wonderful job helping people figure out their story. Is there any way you can help kind of summarize some of that?

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

You’re right that we can’t have all the financial issues that are out there. It’s number one that, when it comes to money, we all have issues. I don’t believe anyone who says that they don’t have some hang up. We all have issues and I think that so much of it is because we don’t talk about it as a culture openly. We only talk about it through social cues and social cues are generally communicated through spending. We don’t see people’s savings, but we see their stuff. That is a huge issue because we’re constantly surrounded by messages about what it means to have, what it means to not have and what you can and can’t do in the world.

Some people grow up where money is the means for them to live their dreams. It’s the thing that allows them to have a door open to walk through and to capitalize on an opportunity. For other people money is the reason why they can’t do the very same things because they don’t have it available to them. So, it becomes a very limiting and stressful influence in their lives. So, what I try to do in the book is to lead people to the right questions to ask themselves because you can ask yourself very simple questions and really answer them with a bit of awareness and self-reflection. That’s all you need to get free of a message that may have been blocking you for a very long time.

Michael Carlin                                                                                                 

I find that when I use your concepts in client meetings simple questions like “What is your philosophy about money?” – we don’t know that the way we talk about money is by showing how much we spend. And it’s so taboo.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

My favorite thing is “just having the sentence money is ….  Just fill in the word and lots of things might come to mind. You can brainstorm them until you’re out of ideas and you may find that your conflicted relationship with money is because you believe that money is opportunity and money is freedom, but also deep down, that money is the root of all evil. That money has the power to corrupt people and that money is dangerous. So, if you hold all those beliefs, you’ve got some cognitive dissonance going on. You’re not going to be able to integrate that well into your life and into your identity because you’ve got some conflicting beliefs about money.

Most of us do and how many times do you hear money is power and power corrupts. Or it comes down to your feelings about power. If you believe that money is security and safety, generally those are the healthiest financial people that I see. People who associate money with security and peace of mind and safety. But even that taken to an extreme can be unhealthy because there are a lot of people who have lots of money. They will never spend all their money, but there’s never a number that feels satisfied. There’s never enough to feel safe enough. And so, there’s a different issue. There has to be a number by which you feel secure. If you don’t have that number, then you’ve got to dig deep and find out what are you afraid of and how can you figure out a plan for that scenario, should it happen, and realize that you will be okay.

Those are the kinds of things that worry us with money. I think that it’s because money involves numbers that we think we’re supposed to only think about logically. In reality, money is involved in every single part of our lives – our identities, hopes, dreams, relationships – everything has money woven through it. So, every single financial decision that we make is made in this larger context of our lives with our goals, hopes, dreams, loves and fears. And it’s not just numbers. We are taught to think about it as if it’s just a math problem. If you make the numbers work, then it works. But you have these numbers and this plan, and it may not work out.

Michael Carlin

You have these graphs that show how the saving today translates to tomorrow. I’ve always said things like this plan gives your money real context. But again, the factor that’s missing is people’s own personal beliefs on money and the impact. What kind of income they either strive for or look to earn is also something that’s very much tangled up in this process.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

I think that’s the best thing that we can do is to slow down and think about money with the same kind of care and depth that we think about other areas of our life. But because it’s such a taboo conversation, we don’t go there. There’s so much shame around money. We shame the rich for being rich, we shame the poor for being poor. We shame ourselves for being disorganized or for not knowing enough. We shame our neighbors for buying too much. We shame ourselves for buying too much. There is just so much shame involved with money that we don’t sit and think through these things.

So, my mission really is to get a healthier conversation about money going on inside people’s heads. Talking with yourself in a healthier way about money and also that conversation between planners and clients – getting them to be open, frank and vulnerable without shame. That’s what people need when it comes to money.  There is no place in our world that we can go where we can be vulnerable about our finances without risking shame. And this is why I believe you can’t ask someone how much money they make because as soon as you say a number, judgment calls. It might be a positive number or a positive judgment. It might be a negative judgment. But as soon as a number is out there, there’s judgment because we’re social creatures and money is a socio-economic thing.

But we think just in terms of the economics, right? Or we treat it in terms of the economics, but I’m trying to get that socio back into the engine because that is so much a part of why we do what we do with our money and why we don’t do the things we know we should do. Because every time somebody says no, somebody misses a contribution to their planet, right? They missed the mark on that. They didn’t go ahead and save that $2,000 this month that they know they should. But what were they saying yes to? They were saying yes to something else. That’s where you can see people’s real priorities. We can see where their current emotional needs might be getting met at the expense of their long-term needs. And maybe you can get into a conversation about how all these needs are important. How can you meet those current emotional needs and physical needs without spending as much money? Because you say you’ve got to save more when that translates to the client I have to give something up.

Michael Carlin

You’re so right. And that is the message I think people do come into the office fearing that – like oh, here we go. What is he going to do? In one of the parts of your book, you talk about, with relation to this, that money issues are normal and they’re not a reason to panic or be frustrated. I’m thinking about these clients and I’m just going to call them Fred and Wilma Flintstone.

So, the Flintstones are good, longstanding clients of mine. His business will vacillate with the economy, so he’ll do well when the economy does well, and he will do a lot less well when the economy doesn’t do well. And they came in originally, specifically because the economy wasn’t doing well. They said you have to help us. We have to get on track and we’ve been through this rollercoaster enough. He was confident that the economy would recover and because this is in 2008. We went through their budget, their expenses and how to make their bills more affordable. She had a Verizon cell phone and he had a Verizon cell phone. We nickeled and dimed it. We got it dialed in and we created the plan.

So, it’s been more than 10 years and his business is doing great, right. The economy’s doing great. His business is doing great. They bought a third car. It’s great that the things that they have in their house are great and they haven’t met their plan. And the problem with that, other than the obvious, is that they are frustrated, and they panic because they meet with me and say we are no better off now even though we’re making all of this money than we were before. And I’m sitting there saying well, it’s hard for me, you know. Yes, there’s your book but there’s connecting those dots. Help us.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

Well, so I mean I don’t want to diagnose the Flintstones, but I would say especially with lumpy income like that it’s easy to spend the money when you don’t have it than when it was in those lean times. Loss aversion is a thing. And so, what happens with spenders, and I understand spenders because I’m a spender, we tend to think about what we could buy before we have the money to buy it.

And so, for example, I got a check out of nowhere yesterday, money I was not expecting, and I immediately thought, okay this is great. This puts me this many dollars closer to my goal. It’s just going right into my plan. Or, I could spend the money three times over in my mind until I caught myself and said no, if I spend it mentally then saving it feels like I’ve lost something. Even when you’ve only spent it mentally, you have that emotional connection to that thing in your mind. So, now putting it to any other use means that you’re actually giving up that thing. So, if you’re a spender and you want to save more, you have to train your mind to love saving and it can be hard, but you have to think in terms of the feeling. The good feeling watching your money grow and eventually with practice that feeling can be stronger and better than the feeling that you get when you blow through money yet again and buy another thing that you’re bored of in three months.

Change takes time and I think what we need in a lot of those cases is somebody who can say hey, I recognize there’s an issue here. I think you recognize it. Would you like some help in that? Like, I could change this, but I might have to kind of get in your face a little bit. Are you okay with that? And in that way being more on the behavioral coaching side of things, but it takes a willing participant. They have to be willing to say “yeah, actually I don’t want to kick myself for spending anymore, so I would like it if you would get in my face a little bit.” That’s the other thing I think that is mentioned here with the Flintstones. It’s something that we all see, which is that spending tends to rise to meet income. And it is so easy to spend money.

And the thing about that, my most recent research has been on social comparisons and how social comparisons affect not only our bottom line but our emotional well-being. Those of us that compare ourselves to people financially more often are far less satisfied with our own financial situation regardless of where we are on the economic ladder. So, people are comparing themselves to people who they think have more and feeling bad about what they have. This is so pervasive. It’s just a part of our Instagram culture and if we want to be in an Instagram world, then we have to learn how to catch ourselves. We’re believing things about other people’s financial lives that simply aren’t true because those people that look like they have it all might be crying in the shower over their credit card bills.

Michael Carlin

You know, it brings up a million different images, but you can’t help yourself financially until you really start to understand the things that you’re saying. So, I’m sure there are people that are listening, and will be listening, and say “yeah,” but you’ve got to really go through the exercises to unpack it so that you have hope to try to really get a hold of it because you’re a Ph.D. in behavioral economics for goodness sake and this is still something that you have to think about.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

I went from doctoral student to professional behavioral economist. I moved from rural Maine to Washington D.C., one of the most expensive urban places, especially to raise a child as a single parent. I went through this crazy amount of comparison because all of a sudden, I was making more than I thought I’d ever make. I move into this great neighborhood in D.C. and suddenly I’m looking at my neighbors who have three Mercedes, and one of them is for their live-in nanny. Out the window one day, to me and my daughter on our patio, the neighbor kid said how come your bedroom is so small.

Michael Carlin

That’s a future money issue waiting to happen.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

So, I had to catch myself and I thought, my God, I should know better than to get caught in this trap of feeling like I need to own the stuff that my neighbors own. But the reality is that we are tribal. We need to have the markings of our tribe. And when you move to a new neighborhood, when you have a new social circle, you feel very strong to match with the assets the people around you have. We’re just trying to meet our need for belonging. It’s a deep fundamental human need and we’re doing that. But the more expensive your neighborhood, the more expensive it’s going to be for you to belong.

Michael Carlin

You know, I would tell you my shameful stories back. We just don’t have time for them. But I can tell you I agree, and I know that that’s right. I’ve lived it. But you bring up privilege and there’s a lot to unpack with money and privilege. So, from my standpoint, you can imagine that there are clients that will come into the office and it’ll be that second-generation wealth where they didn’t make it. They inherited it, or they won it or were gifted it. And those are the folks that end up having real challenges because they have an extremely difficult time keeping it in the account. There is always a reason to take the money out. I believe I read this in your book. But every culture has the story of first generation makes it, second generation spends it and then the third generation starts all over again, right?

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

Yeah. There are terms for it in so many different languages. In China they say the third generation ruins the wealth.

Michael Carlin

I mean that’s clear, but so then what’s the psychology behind it? I understand they didn’t make it.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

I mean, the psychology is, as you know, to the person that’s receiving that money. But there are themes to some of these people. And when you are the recipient of privilege and in unfair world, it’s not common to feel a lot of guilt and shame and that’s something that I think a lot of people don’t have compassion for. It’s the complicated emotions that recipients of wealth will feel. And they don’t want to talk about it because they don’t want to you say, “Oh poor little rich girl.” It’s real to feel those conflicted emotions. And how do they deal with that? Some of them spend. Some, they give it all away. Some of them are behaving in a destructive way financially.

How often what we’re doing is avoiding strong emotions that we don’t want to. And so, if they are spending, spending, spending, there’s probably one of two issues. One, is either they really just don’t understand the concept of assets and that you have to have this stock of resources to generate an income flow. And that’s where the “don’t touch the principal” comes from. It’s a great rule of thumb and what it’s getting at is you need to protect the spring if you want the stream to flow. And so, I think it’s just a lack of understanding about how much you can spend and how much you just need to not touch. But, I think a lot of times it’s less a lack of understanding and it’s more a lack of understanding of the emotional landscape. They don’t understand it themselves. And this is where I think that financial advisors also have to give themselves a bit of a pass here because you are not a psychologist. You are not a clinical therapist and you don’t need to fix all your clients. But, there are some things that you can do to help them be a bit more self-aware. I think there’s a cheesy joke that puts it in perspective, which is how many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, but the lightbulb has to change.

And the reality is that at any given time, research shows that there are six stages of change. Yet, when it comes to making changes in behavior, we don’t actually make the change until stage four. There’s a lot of process that goes into realizing that you need to make a change, then deciding that you want to, setting up your environment so that you’re really set up for success rather than failure and then doing the hard thing of maintaining that and avoiding relapse. Or, you relapse going back and making sure that you can do it again.

We see this with weight loss. We see this with all sorts of things. We know where we’re eating well and the time management. It’s all the same. We have things that we want right now, and we have things that we need in the future. And balancing those things is never easy for us because we’re so much more focused on the present than we are focused on the future. There are some tricks that you can do to get people to think further into the future. The bottom line is the client must be willing to say yes, I will take the chance. I want to change. And some people just won’t be willing to do that and that’s not your fault as an advisor.

Michael Carlin

Well, thank you. It makes me feel better because there are so many different instances that come to mind right now where I have sat there with the planning software and I’ve been pointing at the screen saying if you continue to spend as you have, you can see your account runs out in five, six, ten years. Whenever I try to go through it, you can see the sadness and the shame. I’m sure it’s a lot of shame. I do it only to provide the data because I’m trying to help them see the future just as you indicated. And that’s one way to do it. And it’s so challenging because that’s one of the best tools that I have. It is similar to weight loss and it is similar to so many other human behaviors. There are so many more tools that they have than I have. All I have is a lousy graph. There are so many other things for those other human emotions you’re trying to work on and resources that you can use to help change your behavior. It seems like they’re really in a tough spot.

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

Yeah, but I am not belittling the problem because it is hard. It’s really hard. And the reality is that maybe 15% to 20% of people that even know that they need to make a change are going to be willing to do it. So, you can’t have unrealistic expectations as an advisor of the impact that you can make. But for that 15% to 20%, you can do a whole heck of a lot because once they are open to being more aware of their own motivations and finding solutions that work for them, then they could make a change that will really affect their lives and help them to be happier on every level.

I think that’s where the idea of needs and wants really comes in. Where most of the time with budgeting, we are told you have to know the difference between a want and a need. And that philosophy isn’t necessarily wrong, but what it leads us to is this – budgeting as deprivation kind of model where a budget is a plan for how you’re going to feel deprived because you’re going to cut out all the things you don’t need. You’re only going to keep the things that you need. Meaning the things you need for survival and all the things that are non-essential are going to go away so that you can kick that over into your savings and investment. And now the numbers work. But again, the numbers may work but your life doesn’t work. And the reason is that all that money that you were putting toward other things that you’re now planning to put towards savings, those other things that you were putting that money toward were meeting needs. They aren’t just wants. And this comes down to your theory of human motivation.

But the one that I subscribe to comes from Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and he just basically said look at Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs – belonging and love and meaning – we need those just as much as we need food and water. We’ve got plenty of reason to believe that we can survive without friendship and belonging and meaning but which of us wants to? These are the things that make our lives valuable. They’re the things that make our life worth living. So, if you say well, you can’t spend your money on the things that meet your emotional needs, then of course people will say okay, fine, I’ll do that. But then when it comes down to it, guess what they’re going to need? Their emotional needs because it’s not a want.

So, the way that I counseled people to work with this is to say let’s look at that idea between wants and needs and let’s say everything we do is an attempt to meet an underlying need. And we’ve all got the same set of needs in Maslow’s Hierarchy. You can see them all. So, they’re not really a hierarchy. They’re just all needs and some of our needs are better suited to financial strategies than others, but we still must meet them. So, let’s say you’re going to redirect some money from our current spending category to a savings and investment. You can’t do that successfully until you first think about what needs you were meeting with that spending category because those needs were meeting your need for connection.

Let’s say you were spending $400 a month going out to restaurants with your friends and you really need $250 of that to go into your IRA, or your 529 for your kids. Whatever your goal is, that’s your long-term goal. But that’s $400 you’re spending in a month. And who knows what that will be for different people. For some it’s $150. For others it’s $1,000 or whatever it is that they’re meeting. It’s probably not for food. It’s probably meeting a need for connection, longing for fun, for entertainment, for so many things and once you can identify the needs that you’re meeting with that strategy, then you can ask yourself okay how can I come up with a new strategy to still meet those needs that will cost me less money? And you might start having people over for dinner more often, or you might start setting up some sort of club where you sort of bounce from house to house – whatever it is when people start getting creative about new ways to meet those deeper needs.

They often will come up with solutions that work better than their current ones did in the first place. And not only are they not feeling deprived but they’re feeling totally satisfied and thrilled and they’re feeling peaceful because their long-term needs are now getting met where they weren’t before. So, a simple change in thinking about how the budget can really make a big difference between that can mean the difference between feeling deprived and feeling like you’re living your best life. And to me that’s a huge difference.

Michael Carlin

And we certainly agree. Part of our firm’s mantra is helping people live their best financial lives. It’s something that’s very much embedded in what we do. It’s part of our mission and vision and all I’m thinking about is we should really do two hours on budget. There’s a lot there, but for the purposes of today I sadly have to wrap it up. But I want you to know as I go through this again, I feel like I’m reliving the book again, which is great in sharing this information. You’re living your best financial life and being financially successful is difficult. It’s difficult for anybody but if you don’t take the time to gather some information, really think about it, then your odds of being successful in this department in whatever the version of success is for you is different and unique. It’s going to be difficult without the search for the data.

I look at it and say start with a book like Loaded. Start with that book and then start to unwind, unpack and figure out what’s next. So, help me wrap this thing up. Can you put a beautiful bow on it?

Dr. Sarah Newcomb

Well, I mean obviously, I think Loaded is a good place to start. Yes, it’s going to be hard for everyone. I like how you have that. It is difficult for everyone. It’s not an easy thing even for those people who do have tremendous privilege. That doesn’t mean that their financial journey is easy. Money is hard. They make it harder by not thinking about it and we make it harder by facing it squarely. We need to think about our financial plans just like we would plan out a career. We put more planning into our vacation than we do into our budget. If you don’t know where you’re going, you’ll definitely get there. You know? If you have a place you want to go. You have a life and goals you like to achieve to be able to make your resources work for you and not against you. Life is hard enough. Why make it harder for yourself? Money is hard. Now why make it harder for yourself, right?

Michael Carlin

Ah, well said. Okay, well I’m going to do everything I can to convince you to do a budget on one of these podcasts. You’re amazing. Thank you again.

Thank you for listening. In case you missed it, Loaded is the book. You can find it online and Amazon comes quick. It’s easy with one click anyways.

Thank you so much, Dr. Sarah. You were amazing. It’s been wonderful. Stay tuned. We’ll be back with another Manage the Funds Podcast soon enough. Take care.

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